[FSFLA] Hiperbola: A fully free, stable, secure, simple, lightweight and long-term distribution

[Quiliro]

El Fri, 26 May 2017 14:19:43 -0400
"Eder L. Marques" <eder at edermarques.net> escribió:

> On 26/05/2017 12:40 PM, Quiliro wrote:
> > Dear Eder:
> >
> > Thank you for speaking up. Your points of view are very interesting. Please accept reading my counterpoints and provide your takes.
> 
> Hi Quirilo,
> 
> Thanks for the message.
> I think my focus was more general than the parabola/hyperbola distros, I 
> will try to clarify.
> 
> >>>> Why do we need yet another gnu-linux[-libre] distribution?
> >>>
> >>> Because the developer decided it was necesary.
> >>
> >> I would say he decided he wants to. Necessary can lead to the following
> >> questions: "necessary for who?", "necessary for what?",
> >
> > It does not matter. It is his criteria. If it is for their own benefit, I do not oppose it. I cheer it because it provides the possibility for a group of non-free software users to come in contact with free software (even taking into account that it takes away users from some other free software). It also provides the possibility for the developer to continue collaborating instead of changing sides or stepping aside.
> >
> >> which will lead
> >> to the same kind of answer you already gave, so nevermind.
> >
> > What answer did I already give?
> 
> A centric-based decision, which you pointed out again.

I did not say it was centric. I said it was personal. Centric is to make the decision on others' behalf. Personal is to make the decision on their own behalf.
 
>  From a parabola/hyperbola perspective, if they think (even for personal 
> reasons) they need to fork, it is fine, it's their decision.

That is what I meant.

> I was pointing out more from a distribution perspective, that IMHO we 
> don't need another one. Some reasons why:
> - creates confusion about who wants to start using (what should I 
> select? What is the difference?)

The problem is not that there are many options. The problem is that there is not enough information to make a good decision. A fork does not make the user less benefited. It makes the producer less eficient. But that is her decision.

> - it will be very challenging to maintain the security, which will lead 
> to flaws being exploitable, resulting in a danger environment, bad 
> publicity to the overall community, etc.

I do not think quality depends on the amount of eyes, as Torvalds affirms. I think it depends on the amount of contribution regardless of the amount of contributors. Of course that maintaining the amount of contribution and dividing it by the number of forks, the quality will suffer. Nevertheless, the amount of contribution increases with the number of forks because people are more motivated when they are able to do as they wish. So, in the end, it does not prove it affects the projects.

> It doesn't apply to all kind of forks. Build O.S is a huge effort, and 
> humans don't want to use O.S per se, they want to use the applications 
> on the top of it.

The distro could make the user experience better even if it maintains the same software.

> Bottom line: if a fork is going to be made between parabola/hyperbola, 
> so be it. From FSFLA perspective (as organization) we can think more 
> strategically than fomenting/incentivizing create new distros.

I think this does make sense. But what is the alternative?

Fomenting new distros is not an objective for me when I opened this thread. The idea was to promote the work of a free software activist. I think that always motivates people to work on free software.

> For the sake of this thread, yes, FSFLA need to work with both actors:
> a) the hundreds of distros (than eventually either die or become 
> outdated) to point out how to make them fully free software.
> 
> b) the meta-distributions to identify the points where is space to 
> improve and work with them (instead of segregate from them).

What actions do you suggest? Please bear in mind that proposing an idea without physical participation, is like plowing the sea and reaping the wind.

> > You have said forking is bad for projects. But you have not considered how bad not forking is (especially thinking of people's feelings).
> 
> I was pointing specifically for distro forks, not fork in general.
> You mentioned now the focus of how people do distro forks in most of 
> time: people feelings. Willi also mentioned a good one: ego.

I disagree with this. Ego cannot be a reason to make something for someone else such as making a distro.

> I was pointing more from a technical, strategic and society perspective 
> that we don't need more distros (O.S.). We need more free software 
> (application). :)

I agree. Nevertheless, what we need more is motivation. The former is a technical issue which is surmountable. Motivation is essential.

> FSF[E,In,LA] creates a list of 'approved' distros. However, this 
> approved list is used by, let's say 5% of the gnu/linux user population 
> (which IMHO although can truly free, most of them are very 
> insecure/outdated/hard to use). And then, as I saw many times in many 
> years, persons affiliated to these entities segregating other major 
> distributions that can be considered free, or to work together to 
> improve them in order to just point fingers.
> 
> So yes, my comments were not focused specifically on the 
> parabola/hyperbola, are more focused on the FSF[LA] position about 
> general gnu/linux[-libre] distributions.

This is a very important point you bring about and it is a great discussion.

I do not see how it would be possible to promote non-free distros without going against our own values. Collaborating with them on their free parts (as we already do even if it is not too visible) is good. What do you propose as an example of collaboration that will not surrender our values?


> I was trying to refer that instead of forking a distro I will focus to 
> work to make an existent one more free. But this is a very personal 
> opinion, that's why I said I agree to disagree. :)

I do not disagree with this. I have not promoted forking. I have promoted the work of a group of activists even though I do not consider it the best option. But since it is the best for them and it promotes free software, I promote their work.

> I mentioned some items above, and one example of alternative as focusing 
> the work on some established distro.

This is not an alternative for me. It is an alternative for them. I have asked  one of them (which I have spoken with) to do that. But he has not agreed.
 
>  From the parabola/hyperbola perspective, what your point (the fork) 
> seems to be right for them.

Exactly.

> A single suggestion related to what I pointed here:
> - more joint actions like the h-node initiative;
> - reassess what is on [2] and not be simple minded, identifying ways to 
> improve the situation
> - don't fighting at Flisol etc. those other distros. Rather, pointing 
> all the _specific_ issues and _offering_ alternatives to although using 
> these distros, how to maintain their freedom.

I agree to this. Do you have specific suggestions?

> It is far better (IMHO) 
> than offer/suggest to use an probable 
> obscure/insecure/not-well-maintained distro.

I do not agree. The quest for freedom may be a difficult path. But if it not prefered, then our developer activists will not be backed by us.

> - work with the EFF in privacy related initiatives that can be leveraged 
> with Free Software.

I always promote most of the ideas of the EFF. What do you propose we do aditionaly.

> I will try to become more active and come out with real/tangible 
> suggestions in a near future.

Great! It is tremendous help.

> 1- 
> https://www.fsf.org/news/fsf-and-debian-join-forces-to-help-free-software-users-find-the-hardware-they-need 
> 
> 2- https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html


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Saluton,
Quiliro
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